www.blog.therefugeonline.org

this subject hits a place near and dear to our hearts–the ability to dialogue instead of debate, offer love & respect instead of judgement & condemnation when others don’t believe the same things we believe. being a Christian doesn’t mean you have to be a judgemental, arrogant jackass whose sole purpose is to tell others of their wrong thinking. ok, so some of you are saying “well, wait a minute, Jesus told us we need to speak the truth, share the gospel, not water it down.” we understand the dilemma, we feel it, too. and that’s the big idea here: how do we live out the ways of Jesus, really? can’t we learn to be better listeners, lovers of all people? what does this mean for the “church’? for the refuge? for each of us?

we hope you can join us as we dive into the conversation with the authors of the new book Jim & Casper Go to Church. jim henderson’s a Christian & former pastor from seattle and director of off the map. matt casper’s an atheist who lives in san diego. they traveled across the US together last summer visiting over 20 churches; their unlikely friendship and perspective on the Christian church will challenge us all. they are coming to the refuge on sunday, september 16th (we are hosting them at two other locations, too, friday night the 14th at CU boulder & saturday morning the 15th at pathways church). more details are on the web.

in preparing for their visit, we had a chance to ask jim and matt a few questions.

what motivated each of you to do the jim and casper go to church project?

JIM: After “winning an atheist’s soul” on ebay I was approached by George Barna about doing a book that featured myself and an atheist going to church together and writing reviews. Beyond that it just sounded like a very fun thing to try and pull off.

ps: you can read a little more about that experience here.

MATT: Ummm. I have been engaging people in talks about such questions-is there God? Why are we here? What should we do?-for years. In the book, you see that first I met Jason, who runs a home church, and we became friends. Then, through him, I met Jim, and we ended up writing a book together. I was motivated by the same reasons I am motivated to travel, to read as much as possible, to write music: I knew it would be a learning experience, and I knew I would have fun, too.

what was the funniest moment on your adventures together?

JIM: My funniest moments came when I knew what Casper was about to experience but I let it happen anyway and just watched for his reaction–like getting ambushed by a couple of Bible thumpers right after church or watching people’s faces twitch when we told them that Matt was an Atheist and I was a Christian and we were writing a book together about church.

MATT: Probably any time Christians made Jim more uncomfortable than they made me. Or maybe at The Bridge in Portland. It caters to a young hip crowd, who are typically a young, hip, and poor crowd. About midway into the service, they all started heading for the exits (a smoke break, I presumed). Seconds later, the collection buckets-trick or treat baskets that looked like Spiderman and Batman-came out. Suddenly, this mass exodus made perfect sense.

thinking back on your travels together, what surprised you the most?

JIM: How fair Matt was in his assessments of Christians–not a surprise as in a BIG surprise but as in a pleasant surprise. Also on how much we agreed on.

MATT: How much we agreed on. See? We just did it again! Also, Jim used to play in a few bands (”We were like ‘The Beatles’ of Mexico City. . . “). The biggest surprise was how quickly Jim and I established a rapport. . . within about a few hours, we were holding nothing back.

matt, if you knew nothing about Christianity but only went to the large churches to find out what would you say are some of the primary values of Christianity?

MATT: Believing in God, growing the church, converting people to Christianity. Sounds good when you read it like that. But I want to know: what good does simply believing do anyone? Belief is not an ends, it’s a means. And growing the church is not the same as helping people or doing God’s will. . . it’s more like a business objective. And when the talk was about converting people, it sounded like folks were more interested in putting “notches on their cross” rather than really helping people. . . “So, Bob, how many conversions did you land this week? Only 3? HAH! I converted 12 people! Boo-yaa!”

jim, if you were telling the average evangelical christian what is on your heart related to the “church”, what would you say?

JIM: If I didn’t have to open with a long list of qualifiers I would say: We’ve inherited a view of church that is flawed. It has been in the works for about 1700 years or more. It is called the religion business. We need to rescue Jesus from religion and take him public. We have an historic opportunity to nudge this thing back into movement phase if we can find the courage to follow in our founders’ footsteps and care more about how the missing see us than how the found do.

of course, your trip was limited to short visits into churches for an hour or so service. if you had really hung out in the community for a longer period of time, what do you think you may have discovered?

JIM: If we could have located them, we would have seen numbers of ordinary people serving non-Christians in ordinary ways. Unfortunately due to the economic pressures (as in justifying the pastor/speaker’s salary) put on churches there is little to no time to feature these ordinary people every weekend.

MATT: I would (and here’s my bias) probably have been disappointed as–based on some conversations I’ve had with more than a few Christians–a lot of people seem to think being a Christian requires little more than a 10% donation and an hour on Sunday. However, I did attend a small group at a local Baptist church where people talked about how to apply what they learned in that day’s sermon, but it was kind of meandering and no real “action items” came out of it.

what is the hardest part for each of you to understand about the other person’s belief system? what has surprised you the most about the others person’s beliefs? what has offended you? encouraged you?

JIM: I don’t find atheism hard to understand. I think it is a common sense and reasonable conclusion to come to if you are limited to measuring using our five senses. Further I think that a reasonable and maybe even a compassionate person (Christians call them humanists as if it is a dirty word) would certainly find it ludicrous to believe in any god currently sponsored by the major world religions. I mean they are pretty weird–including the religion known as Christianity. Having said that, I find atheism to be very difficult to believe in. I have had too many experiences in life that are transrational, loving and lovely to not raise my suspicions that there is a God out there who is at least as good as I can be (on my good days). Besides whether or not Jesus is objectively true or real I would like him to be and since I don’t find anything particularly compelling or interesting about atheism (which could also be a reflection of my lack of intellect) I will stick with the Jesus story and look forward to falling into his arms when this rat race is finally over. There just has to be a place called heaven–this place is just too screwed up. I can’t believe that this is the end. . . sorry.

MATT: This is the question we don’t discuss in the book, but purposefully. It’s not that we avoid it. It’s just that. . . well, what’s the point? If you want me to learn about your beliefs, show me how you live. Jim and Jason and all my believing friends know that I think believing in supernatural gods is really quite strange when you stop to think about it. But what encouraged me was hearing Jim freely agree (”Yes, I see how you think it could be very strange. . . “) and not try to tell me I was wrong. And I never said he was wrong, either, because, in my opinion, when it comes to what you believe it’s subjective and cannot be proven or disproven, so why bother. . . ? Ask questions, get to know a person, be free of an agenda beyond, pursue “I’d like to know what you think.” Nothing Jim did offended me as he answered every question from an honest place. Who could ask for anything more? I came away from all of this encouraged, because American Christians-in spite of the fact they worship one of the most peaceful men who ever lived-can get quite vitriolic and violent while discussing their beliefs. Jim didn’t and doesn’t.

what is the best thing you have learned from being in relationship with one another?

JIM: Being friends with Matt has made me a much more honest and grounded follower of Jesus. It has also motivated me to become a better practitioner of dialog and made me less afraid of difference. Our friendship is a unique gift and one I hope to cultivate for the rest of my life. I really enjoy Matt and especially enjoy his humor, kindness and interest in others.

MATT: Being friends with Jim has made me a much more honest and grounded atheist. It has also motivated me to become a better practitioner of dialog and made me less afraid of difference. Our friendship is a unique gift and one I hope to cultivate for the rest of my life. I really enjoy Jim and especially enjoy his humor, kindness and interest in others. Also, being friends with Jim has changed how I see the world. I was never an “angry atheist” like so many high profile authors we hear about today–Dawkins, Hitchens. et al. (I think they are “anti-theists” not atheists as their books seem to be about how there is no God, not about how living with no God can be a good thing.) I am now so much more in touch with how I see the world, and I remain as open as ever to the fact that I may be wrong about there not being a god. Some would say that makes me an agnostic, but the fact about gods is that no one can prove or disprove their existence. Thus, we never know (until we’re dead). And so, aren’t we all agnostic with tendencies toward either belief or non belief? I never asked myself these kinds of questions or crystallized these kinds of thoughts until I met and traveled with Jim Henderson. I am glad to know him.

the reason we invited you guys to come to denver is we believe in your project. we are listening. as Christians, we really want to be people who ask ourselves the hard questions–how did our reputation become so crazy? what has the church become? why is it so hard for us to live alongside people who disagree? we of course are hoping there will be a wide range of people at these conversations, across faiths, no faith, ages & experiences. so, as you prepare to come here to denver, what are you guys hoping the conversation will do for those who come?

JIM: Move them to connect with someone they think of as “the other” or as “an outsider” and become great question askers.

MATT: Help people return to treating faith as faith, and not as fact. In the book, I close with wishing people would stop staying, “Be a Christian or go to hell” and start saying, “We follow Jesus, and here’s what we do and how it has helped us.”

so, everyone, we hope this gave you a small taste of our conversation. we’d love to hear your comments. this is definitely one to invite your friends to. they will be at the refuge on sunday, september 16th at 5:30 pm. we are also hosting them at two other locations to give as many people as possible the chance to participate. . . CU boulder on friday night the 14th at 6pm and at pathways church on saturday morning at 10 am. for details click here.

this is a reprint of an article we shared in our august 07 vertigo, the online journal of spiritual dizziness at the refuge. we know some of you have already read it but we wanted to put it up for those that don’t get vertigo (if you are interested in subscribing, click here). plus, this way you can comment, too.

when we planted the refuge 15 months ago, there were many people who thought (and secretly hoped) we’d replicate the “attractional” church model that we had been part of. it could have been so simple–a few good messages, amazing, upbeat music, a few light trees and fog machines, and we would have been golden. good communicator, solid care pastor, it was the formula for success. one problem–it violated so many of our core beliefs about what “church” is supposed to be. so instead we have chosen this harder path in the wider Christian community. at this point we aren’t sure if we’re smart or stupid.

but we do know there are many church leaders out there who are overwhelmed by the exponential growth they’ve experienced in the past few years (they definitely followed the manual we seem to have misplaced). they don’t quite know what to do because their budgets and staff keep increasing, they’re running million dollar building campaigns, and sunday programming continues to ramp up to near-hollywood levels. we have heard their cry and offer our heartfelt and sympathetic advice. you see if there is anything we feel competent at, it is managing rapid growth. in fact, we are confident we can solve the problems of churches that are too big. our answer? our area of expertise?

we call it “Church Shrinkage”….

just apply these 8 easy principles and we’re 100% sure your church will shrink (but who knows, maybe in the end you’ll live out some of your dreams of the way you’ve longed church could be)

1. shoot the sheriff.

don’t build what is called a faith community on any superstar other than Jesus. remember, He said He was the head of the thing, although people usually want a more tangible and handsome superstar, one hero who makes all of the decisions. hmm, no telling where it all went awry, but as far as we can tell the early church was just a group of men & women who loved God and each other and wanted others to know Him, too.

2. tell the truth.

be more honest about where each dollar goes, who gets the biggest salary (and the least), what the real agenda is. do 25 million dollar buildings really help poor Jesus out, or are they in fact ways to proclaim power and comfort? what is hidden is always bad news for the poor.

3. embrace brokenness.

sounds good when it is a program for others, but is confession a way of life for leadership or are the stories of brokenness someone else’s and the speakers seem to have more “victory” than the average schmoe? what happens to people when they aren’t getting “healed” fast enough?

4. demand equality.

look around, do women have equal status & power? enough said.

5. defer to the least of these.

are the folks in charge the ones Jesus would notice, or do they seem more from wall street? are poor, uneducated, but loving servants of Jesus on the elder board? or does the board look more like a fortune 500 company? is success measured in dollars and numbers? whose phone calls get returned? who is getting invited to play golf with the pastors?

6. be generous.

where does most of the money go? what is spent on “the show”, programming, creating comfort versus single moms, struggling families or hungry children?

7. let people speak.

why are we so afraid of dialogue? why do only the “professionals” get to speak?

8. value people above strategy.

what happens when someone is passionate about something but it doesn’t align with the personal preferences of church leadership? do staff people seem to come and go on a regular basis? someone is being sacrificed for a strategy, and that strategy is about being bigger.

see, anyone can have a smaller church, if you lay down power, control, and personal comfort. if you are willing to be honest about what happens behind closed doors, then your church can also have the joy of shrinking. we’ll be glad to help.

What is fast? I think I know because God has given me a gauge, an internal and irrefutable indicator of too much speed. It’s called the constricting sphincter. I remember riding with my friend who believed he could “feel the road,” so 67 mph around one lane mountain passes made all the sense in the world. I chewed a hole in his seat. I understand that speed is inherently a subjective and biased opinion. “Hey, I think we need to slow down” can be heard in planes, board rooms, back seats, athletic fields. But what about churches and God?

I was reflecting recently on the one year anniversary of my departure from mega-church employment and what is different now. The question arose, “what has been the biggest shift in what you believe?” It is about speed. I was pre-disposed to think that people change very quickly. A single sermon, or at the least a series, is all it takes to get things moving in the proper direction. One or two weeks of being stuck, just add a little spiritual fiber (prayer, Bible reading, and solid preaching, the evangelical elixir) and presto, unstuck. A few years of being stuck, you might need to throw in a few extra scoops of godly Metamucil—extra time with me as your pastor offering my eloquent wisdom and maybe a good book to read about your ailment, and voila! Ahh, movement. My apologies, I seem to be a bit stuck in the lower hemisphere for my analogies today. Suffice it to say the expectations in mega- church world are that people should very quickly resolve what it is that ails them.

One of the issues that lead to my demise of employment was I have some unresolved childhood stuff. I am insecure, frightened at times, a compulsive people pleaser and so on. But way more grievous is that I thought it should be talked about. I will give you a quote upon my departure “you need to go away with God and get this resolved before you are qualified to preach.” Get ‘er done! What is funny, is that the powers that be would think I had never tried that! Trust me, I would take an instant, miraculous healing in a second.

The shift in my perception and ability to pastor that has become the most noticeable this past year: take what you or your church believe to be the proper amount of time to experience change and simply multiply that number by 100. Change is a factor of 100 times slower than what you thought. Churches are in danger of subtly communicating the opposite, especially when all of our stories are of the victories we have and the quickly resolved issues. We begin to create communities of people who believe they are spiritual freaks, they are not like others because although they love Jesus and have begged for change, it still seems so far away. Real change takes time, and time isn’t all that glamorous. Let’s face it, The Refuge, it ain’t all that glamorous. It is sometimes ugly, frustrating to see a lot of pain and have it not be resolved quick enough for us to feel comfortable. I feel the same way about my journey of change, too. I want it to be neater, cleaner, and certainly more triumphant.

So we continue to hope for the simple fix. Just think for a moment how many times you have sat in church and you heard this preface to what it is that plagues us: “well, all you need to do is….” One problem, one solution, and fast!

When I hear that sentence, I start to cramp up, way too fast.

Here is my proposal: let’s all get church uniforms.

Uniforms are great! They make it easy to recognize who is on your team and who is the enemy. A uniform could help take some of the guess work out of who is “in” and who is “out” , who we are for, who we are against. I will attempt to design a uniform that I think best represents and serves the suburban, typical, evangelical, church (S.T.E.N.CH)

Ok, I think it needs to be one solid color, something light, say peach or barely beige, because brown and black and yellow are not often seen. We like mostly whites.

It should be extremely masculine. It needs to have pants and a zipper, nothing too frilly or even remotely androgynous. You will see woman in attendance at S.T.E.N.CH, but not in any decision making capacity. God made them to be happiest in the nursery, didn’t He?

It needs to be highly flammable, because everyone knows Jesus hates it when you smoke. Enough said.

Pockets are needed, but only the right side. Anything to do with the “left” is disgusting.

I think a nice red, white and blue tie would help make it clear that we are primarily concerned with America.

A small cross necklace, of course empty, without Jesus hanging across it, is a nice
way to say Not Catholic. We are still pretty pissed off about that Rome thing.

It must be medium sized. This is subtle, but we really do not like obese people. Jesus wants excellence, and chubby Christians are just not trying hard enough.

The helmet is critical. It must be able to protect our brains and ears from anything that does not come from our team. Something that would limit our vision and ability to hear would be helpful. “be careful little eyes what you see…”

Finally, winged tipped shoes. Nothing says we are “conservative” like wing tips.

I hope this catches on. It seems critical that we be able to identify who is not on our team. This idea of loving people as they are as the great Christian distinction is just not working very well.

If this fails I have this really cool, secret handshake I am working on.

Ok, I am dying to know your thoughts, so let us know. Anything you would add to the uniform?

Karl