Comments on: KATHY - no girl pastors allowed http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/2007/07/16/kathy-no-girl-pastors-allowed/ Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:48:36 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Sage H. http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/2007/07/16/kathy-no-girl-pastors-allowed/#comment-1020 Sage H. Tue, 09 Dec 2008 03:09:26 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=34#comment-1020 Hi Lyn, Thanks for the thoughts. I agree with Kathy that the question is not one of inerrancy, but rather of interpretation. I would be happy to have a respectful conversation about this with you here, if you would like. My question to you is this- Is the artifact of scripture (the Holy Bible) exactly identical with the Logos, the living word of God? Hi Lyn, Thanks for the thoughts. I agree with Kathy that the question is not one of inerrancy, but rather of interpretation. I would be happy to have a respectful conversation about this with you here, if you would like.
My question to you is this-
Is the artifact of scripture (the Holy Bible) exactly identical with the Logos, the living word of God?

]]> By: kathyescobar http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/2007/07/16/kathy-no-girl-pastors-allowed/#comment-1019 kathyescobar Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:46:04 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=34#comment-1019 hi lyn, thanks for taking the time to offer your perspectives. i do realize there are people all over the place when it comes to this issue. in response to your question, this particular one is not an inerrancy question but rather a question of interpretation. a great resource related to scriptural integrity is christians for biblical equality. http://www.cbeinternational.org. they have done great work in this area and might be helpful in understanding how some of us who consider ourselves dedicated and thought-full christ-followers can see the scriptures differently than maybe what you see or what you have been taught. peace to you on your journey, kathy how did you hear about this blog? hi lyn, thanks for taking the time to offer your perspectives. i do realize there are people all over the place when it comes to this issue. in response to your question, this particular one is not an inerrancy question but rather a question of interpretation. a great resource related to scriptural integrity is christians for biblical equality. http://www.cbeinternational.org. they have done great work in this area and might be helpful in understanding how some of us who consider ourselves dedicated and thought-full christ-followers can see the scriptures differently than maybe what you see or what you have been taught. peace to you on your journey, kathy
how did you hear about this blog?

]]> By: Lyn http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/2007/07/16/kathy-no-girl-pastors-allowed/#comment-1016 Lyn Sun, 07 Dec 2008 01:32:28 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=34#comment-1016 Good Evening, I guess the first thing I should ask is do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God? If I understand your position, then it may help me to better understand the argument of woman pastors which would greatly help my study. If the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, which as Christians we believe, then is it not it our duty as Christians to follow the word of God and not our own desires for ourselves? Shouldn't we follow God, how God guides us and not follow God on our own terms? The Bible Study I am currently working on right now is woman being pastors, which was how I came upon your article. I am a God Fearing Christian woman, married, family, very active with church, I assist in teaching children at church and where I believe that I or other women can do most things just as a man can or maybe even better in some instances I do not think just because we can do it that it should be done. If I want something that goes against God's will for my life I am not going to turn around and do it because if I do I am just glorifying myself NOT God. Not to say that at every given point we are all always Godly. Only Christ was blameless, sinless, and perfect. Most people who argue women should be pastors are arguing that to not allow it is sexist. Why should we make God conform to society? After all, God was the one who created it in the first place. Just because we are women does not make us inferior as in the Kingdom of Christ we are all equal Gal 3:26-29 in the eyes of God. However, Jesus comes for our salvation and lifts the curse from us in the Garden on Eden. However, it does not change the distinctive roles we have as individuals, as man and woman, or father and mother. Would one argue that scientists need to make it so that men can carry babies and have them? Most likely not, barring the argument of women who have had babies thinking it would be great for a man to “understand” what it is like. God created Man not able to give birth; it was not part of the natural order for a man. God created woman to give birth; natural order for a woman. If one argues that it is sexist for a woman not to be a pastor, then one in essence would not one be saying God is sexist in his design and not in role. Furthermore, then God’s own design of man would also be sexist for man who is not able to give birth; natural order. God knew what he was doing. Everything serves God’s will and purpose, at least that is how it is suppose to be. There is a definitive difference between worldly and Godly. As we see in James 1:13 “….for God can not be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.” We are called to be Godly, but sins of the flesh and the world (being cardinal) is always a daily battle. We are to die to ourselves everyday. Is 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts; nor are your ways my ways, says Jehovah. For as the heavens are high from the earth, so my ways are high from your ways, and my thoughts from your thoughts.” There is a difference between CAN and SHOULD. I believe a woman can physically do the job of a pastor but I feel that a woman should not because it goes against God’s will for women. We are ALL called to be obedient to God's word. It becomes an internal question of whether we should or should not. We did not have the option in the garden that we could not eat the fruit we did, after all, eat it. God commanded NOT to.. the point was we Should not have. If a man is to be the head of a house, and Christ the head of the church then What happens if you have a woman that is married as the head of a church? Then how can she submit to her husband at home (let alone all of the time as we are called to) ? She would be his spiritual leader at home to and then not the other way around. Does that not go against God's word? Christ was Prophet, Priest and King and men are supposed to be reflections of Christ. Therefore if a woman is the Priest, how then can a man step up and do what God's will is for him? Here are some of the Bible Passages that I came across in my study that relate to this discussion, bible verses : 1 Tim 2 discusses leadership See specifically: 1 Tim 2:11 “a woman should learn in quietness and full submission” 1 Tim 2:12 “ I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent” 1 Tim 2:13 “For Adam was formed first not Eve.” 1 Tim 3 discusses Overseers and Deacons Gen 2:7, Gen 2:22, Gen 3, 1 Cor 11: 7-9, John 14:28, 1 Cor 15:28 1Cor 14:21,34 , Col 3:18 Eph 5:22- “The wives to the own husbands subject yourselves, as to the Lord, because a man is head of the woman, as also the Christ (is) Head of the church, and He is Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives to the own husbands in everything. The husbands, love the wives (of) yourselves, even as also Christ loved the church, and himself gave up on behalf of it, that he might sanctify, cleansing by the washing of the water by, (the) word, that might present it to himself glorious the church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that it be holy and unblemished. 2 Cor 11: 3 “But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the Serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.” In the Gospels, Christ selects his disciples not one is a woman. Mark 3: 14-19, Luke 6: 12-16, On Abiding in Christ: John 15:5, 1 John 2:28, 2 John 9 On Fear of God : Josh 24:14, Eccl. 12:13, 1 Pet 2:17 On Obedience: Josh 11:15, 2 Kings 18:6, Col 3:23 On Worship: 1 Chr16:29, Ps 95:6 John 4:24 Jesus tells us in this verse “ God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Thank your for reading and for your help on this matter, Your Sister in Christ, Lyn Good Evening,

I guess the first thing I should ask is do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God? If I understand your position, then it may help me to better understand the argument of woman pastors which would greatly help
my study.

If the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, which as Christians we believe,
then is it not it our duty as Christians to follow the word of God and not
our own desires for ourselves? Shouldn’t we follow God, how God guides us and not follow God on our own terms? The Bible Study I am currently working on right now is woman being pastors, which was how I came upon your article.

I am a God Fearing Christian woman, married, family, very active with church, I assist in teaching children at church and where I believe that I or other women can do most things just as a man can or maybe even better in some instances I do not think just because we can do it that it should be done. If I want something that goes against God’s will for my life I am not going to turn around and do it because if I do I am just glorifying myself NOT God. Not to say that at every given point we are all always Godly. Only Christ was blameless, sinless, and perfect.

Most people who argue women should be pastors are arguing
that to not allow it is sexist. Why should we make God conform to society?
After all, God was the one who created it in the first place. Just because we are women does not make us inferior as in the Kingdom of Christ we are all equal Gal 3:26-29 in the eyes of God. However, Jesus comes for our salvation and lifts the curse from us in the Garden on Eden. However, it does not change the distinctive roles we have as individuals, as man and woman, or father and mother. Would one argue that scientists need to make it so that men can carry babies and have them? Most likely not, barring the argument of women who have had babies thinking it would be great for a man to “understand” what it is like. God created Man not able to give birth; it was not part of the natural order for a man. God created woman to give birth; natural order for a woman. If one argues that it is sexist for a woman not to be a pastor, then one in essence would not one be saying God is sexist in his design and not in role. Furthermore, then God’s own design of man would also be sexist for man who is not able to give birth; natural order. God knew what he was doing. Everything serves God’s will and purpose, at least that is how it is suppose to be. There is a definitive difference between worldly and Godly. As we see in James 1:13 “….for God can not be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.” We are called to be Godly, but sins of the flesh and the world (being cardinal) is always a daily battle. We are to die to ourselves everyday. Is 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts; nor are your ways my ways, says Jehovah. For as the heavens are high from the earth, so my ways are high from your ways, and my thoughts from your thoughts.”

There is a difference between CAN and SHOULD. I believe a woman can physically do the job of a pastor but I feel that a woman should not because it goes against God’s will for women. We are ALL called to be obedient to God’s word. It becomes an internal question of whether we should or should not. We did not have the option in the garden that we could not eat the fruit we did, after all, eat it.
God commanded NOT to.. the point was we Should not have.

If a man is to be the head of a house, and Christ the head of the church then
What happens if you have a woman that is married as the head of a church?
Then how can she submit to her husband at home (let alone all of the time as we are called to) ? She would be his spiritual leader at home to and then not the other way around. Does that not go against God’s word?
Christ was Prophet, Priest and King and men are supposed to be reflections of Christ. Therefore if a woman is the Priest, how then can a man step up and do what God’s will is for him?

Here are some of the Bible Passages that I came across in my study that relate to this discussion, bible verses :
1 Tim 2 discusses leadership
See specifically:
1 Tim 2:11 “a woman should learn in quietness and full submission”
1 Tim 2:12 “ I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent”
1 Tim 2:13 “For Adam was formed first not Eve.”

1 Tim 3 discusses Overseers and Deacons

Gen 2:7, Gen 2:22, Gen 3, 1 Cor 11: 7-9, John 14:28, 1 Cor 15:28
1Cor 14:21,34 , Col 3:18

Eph 5:22- “The wives to the own husbands subject yourselves, as to the Lord, because a man is head of the woman, as also the Christ (is) Head of the church, and He is Savior of the body. But as the
church is subject to Christ, so also the wives to the own husbands in everything. The husbands, love the wives (of) yourselves, even as also Christ loved the church, and himself gave up on behalf
of it, that he might sanctify, cleansing by the washing of the water by, (the) word, that might present it to himself glorious the church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that it be holy and unblemished.

2 Cor 11: 3 “But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the Serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.”

In the Gospels, Christ selects his disciples not one is a woman.
Mark 3: 14-19, Luke 6: 12-16,

On Abiding in Christ: John 15:5, 1 John 2:28, 2 John 9
On Fear of God : Josh 24:14, Eccl. 12:13, 1 Pet 2:17
On Obedience: Josh 11:15, 2 Kings 18:6, Col 3:23
On Worship: 1 Chr16:29, Ps 95:6

John 4:24 Jesus tells us in this verse “ God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Thank your for reading and for your help on this matter,
Your Sister in Christ,
Lyn

]]> By: sherri http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/2007/07/16/kathy-no-girl-pastors-allowed/#comment-108 sherri Wed, 25 Jul 2007 04:22:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=34#comment-108 Although there is scripture that says woman should not be in head-of-church positions, I believe it is important to point out that there is also scripture that says slaves should obey their masters, adulterers should be put to death, women should not cut their hair or wear jewelry, etc. The list goes on and on. While reading these scriptures, it is absolutely necessary to consider the context, culture, time period, and general lesson which was intended by the writer at the time it was written. Too many have been oppressed in the name of God by the church when one or all of the above points were not considered. This oppression continues today by a large percentage within the church body. Oppression is wrong.....period. Who are <br/>any of us to say that God would never call any woman ever to be a pastor!?! God is so much bigger than the box we, as the church, have put Him in.Yes, let us prayerfully seek all of our answers with an open heart and look to the holy scriptures for those answers. Let us follow Jesus' example of belief in equality and freeing the oppressed through His actions. If we <br/>truly seek God's truth in such matters with an open heart, He will reveal His truth to us.<br/>On a personal note, I'd like to thank you, Kathy, for not giving up and continuing to fight this good fight. I'm with you on this. Growing up in a southern baptist church has given me a strong faith in God, as well as a <br/>strong sense that some things must change within the church. Thank you, Kathy, for answering God's call to become the incredible pastor that you are. Thank you for ministering to me and my children in a very tangible and <br/>Christ-like way. Thank you for paving the hard road for the rest of us. <br/>HANG IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br/>Sherri Although there is scripture that says woman should not be in head-of-church positions, I believe it is important to point out that there is also scripture that says slaves should obey their masters, adulterers should be put to death, women should not cut their hair or wear jewelry, etc. The list goes on and on. While reading these scriptures, it is absolutely necessary to consider the context, culture, time period, and general lesson which was intended by the writer at the time it was written. Too many have been oppressed in the name of God by the church when one or all of the above points were not considered. This oppression continues today by a large percentage within the church body. Oppression is wrong…..period. Who are
any of us to say that God would never call any woman ever to be a pastor!?! God is so much bigger than the box we, as the church, have put Him in.Yes, let us prayerfully seek all of our answers with an open heart and look to the holy scriptures for those answers. Let us follow Jesus’ example of belief in equality and freeing the oppressed through His actions. If we
truly seek God’s truth in such matters with an open heart, He will reveal His truth to us.
On a personal note, I’d like to thank you, Kathy, for not giving up and continuing to fight this good fight. I’m with you on this. Growing up in a southern baptist church has given me a strong faith in God, as well as a
strong sense that some things must change within the church. Thank you, Kathy, for answering God’s call to become the incredible pastor that you are. Thank you for ministering to me and my children in a very tangible and
Christ-like way. Thank you for paving the hard road for the rest of us.
HANG IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sherri

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/2007/07/16/kathy-no-girl-pastors-allowed/#comment-107 Anonymous Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:05:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=34#comment-107 The people with the "no women pastors" seem to be the same ones that totally ignore the "husband of one wife" issue and allow divorced (and re-married) men to be elders. It seems it is forgivable to get a divorce (which I totally agree is true--God forgives all sin, don't get me wrong here), but the unforgivable sin is to be a woman in the American evangelical church today. I'm bad at remembering authors, but Mike (I think) gave me a book with a different perspective. Maybe God doesn't want women to be pastors because we are more prone to be hurt by criticism and pastors get a lot of relational s*&$ thrown at them. In other words, God is protecting women by not wanting them to be in the position of pastor (not punishing us) because we are more relational and those relational wounds hurt more????? So, maybe if the men in the "church" were protecting and pastoring the women, we wouldn't want or need women pastors. Just a thought--I LOVE having Kathy as my pastor and don't want any changes there!<br/><br/>H*&&, I was told I was not even good enough to be a pastor's wife! Are there any qualifications for pastor's wife in the Bible? Besides, I know there is a verse about "submitting to each other as brothers and sisters in the Lord". Try that on the next "non-Refuge" pastor you come across and ask if he would like to submit to you. Might be an interesting survey.<br/><br/>Off subject--the Refuge is making a name for itself in the Denver area. I met someone from the south end of town whose friend wants to come and visit. Pretty cool!<br/><br/>Janelle The people with the “no women pastors” seem to be the same ones that totally ignore the “husband of one wife” issue and allow divorced (and re-married) men to be elders. It seems it is forgivable to get a divorce (which I totally agree is true–God forgives all sin, don’t get me wrong here), but the unforgivable sin is to be a woman in the American evangelical church today. I’m bad at remembering authors, but Mike (I think) gave me a book with a different perspective. Maybe God doesn’t want women to be pastors because we are more prone to be hurt by criticism and pastors get a lot of relational s*&$ thrown at them. In other words, God is protecting women by not wanting them to be in the position of pastor (not punishing us) because we are more relational and those relational wounds hurt more????? So, maybe if the men in the “church” were protecting and pastoring the women, we wouldn’t want or need women pastors. Just a thought–I LOVE having Kathy as my pastor and don’t want any changes there!

H*&&, I was told I was not even good enough to be a pastor’s wife! Are there any qualifications for pastor’s wife in the Bible? Besides, I know there is a verse about “submitting to each other as brothers and sisters in the Lord”. Try that on the next “non-Refuge” pastor you come across and ask if he would like to submit to you. Might be an interesting survey.

Off subject–the Refuge is making a name for itself in the Denver area. I met someone from the south end of town whose friend wants to come and visit. Pretty cool!

Janelle

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/2007/07/16/kathy-no-girl-pastors-allowed/#comment-106 Anonymous Mon, 23 Jul 2007 03:50:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=34#comment-106 Is there scripture that says women should not be in a pastoral positon?<br/><br/>As true followers of Jesus, being able to find ALL answers in the Bible, let's journey there to solve the issue. <br/><br/>Then, we rest assured that our intentions are right along with the Spirit, rather than develping our own opinions or feelings to make a case. Is there scripture that says women should not be in a pastoral positon?

As true followers of Jesus, being able to find ALL answers in the Bible, let’s journey there to solve the issue.

Then, we rest assured that our intentions are right along with the Spirit, rather than develping our own opinions or feelings to make a case.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/2007/07/16/kathy-no-girl-pastors-allowed/#comment-104 Anonymous Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:00:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=34#comment-104 Phyl. I like what you said. There is always a temptation to give in because the battle is so hard. Kathy, keep up the good fight. You are breaking ground for young girls, like your own daughter, so they will have an easier time when they grow up, if they chose to be pastors. God couldn't have picked a better person for this fight. Thank you for all you do for so many. Phyl. I like what you said. There is always a temptation to give in because the battle is so hard. Kathy, keep up the good fight. You are breaking ground for young girls, like your own daughter, so they will have an easier time when they grow up, if they chose to be pastors. God couldn’t have picked a better person for this fight. Thank you for all you do for so many.

]]> By: Phyl http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/2007/07/16/kathy-no-girl-pastors-allowed/#comment-103 Phyl Thu, 19 Jul 2007 01:14:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=34#comment-103 Dear Kathy,<br/>As the Pope, that great egalitarian leader says, in Latin of course, "Nill illigitimi carborundum."<br/>(don't let the bastards get you down). Dear Kathy,
As the Pope, that great egalitarian leader says, in Latin of course, “Nill illigitimi carborundum.”
(don’t let the bastards get you down).

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/2007/07/16/kathy-no-girl-pastors-allowed/#comment-101 Anonymous Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:47:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=34#comment-101 kath, there is no doubt that you are fighting an uphill battle. the good old boy system is alive and well. have never been sure why God allows it to flourish, but, also, never could quite understand why the the church, (the southern baptist convention actually came about because of their pro slavery position) can use the bible to keep people beaten down, either. looks like the southern baptists are wrong, yet again, when it comes to the woman pastor issue. just keep fighting the battle and know we are behind you. i would love to have the addresses of those bookstores, in the denver area, because i'm feeling the need to order some books. maybe we could change your title to "bishop" or maybe "prophet". hahah. then maybe you could meet their stupid criteria. you go get em PASTOR ESCOBAR!!<br/> mike<br/>ps have to confess that i used to be one of those jackasses, but i saw the light. there is hope that God can change these people one heart at a time. do not give up my friend. kath, there is no doubt that you are fighting an uphill battle. the good old boy system is alive and well. have never been sure why God allows it to flourish, but, also, never could quite understand why the the church, (the southern baptist convention actually came about because of their pro slavery position) can use the bible to keep people beaten down, either. looks like the southern baptists are wrong, yet again, when it comes to the woman pastor issue. just keep fighting the battle and know we are behind you. i would love to have the addresses of those bookstores, in the denver area, because i’m feeling the need to order some books. maybe we could change your title to “bishop” or maybe “prophet”. hahah. then maybe you could meet their stupid criteria. you go get em PASTOR ESCOBAR!!
mike
ps have to confess that i used to be one of those jackasses, but i saw the light. there is hope that God can change these people one heart at a time. do not give up my friend.

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